walkingshadow (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
walkingshadow) wrote2005-12-08 02:27 pm
walkingshadow) wrote2005-12-08 02:27 pm
Entry tags:
i can't get enough of this local color!
when it came to writing up my reactions to my most recent viewing of SGA season one, i started ranting again about everyone in the pegasus galaxy being JERKS, because i get so worked up during "underground" and "the storm/the eye." PEOPLE IN THE PEGASUS GALAXY ARE JERKS, i wrote in all-caps in my notes. (i took notes! of course i took notes. jules and i sat on the edges of our seats, each with our own pen and paper, and diligently scribbled.) jerks! i had to burst out with that every few minutes while we watched. i mean, wouldn't you want to be owed a favor by the neo-atlanteans? where is the pegasus galaxy human alliance? i wanted to know. and then i looked at that for a second and thought, huh, where IS the pegasus galaxy human alliance?
because while the hostility to the neo-atlanteans is jerky and often baffling, it's also unexpectedly and refreshingly anti-colonial—which other people basically have had to point out for me with small words and visual aids, but it's fascinating when they do. so, you know, shun the uppity newcomers, whatever. what's more surprising is the lack of cohesion among the worlds. it's completely counter-intuitive, because, yes, in a war you expect to find some profiteers and some mercenaries and some traitors, along the lines of the chancellor of the "condemned" planet and the taskmaster formerly known as kell; but in general people bond together when faced with an outside threat—a deadly, unambiguous threat—that affects them all. instead we find not just that a lot of the people don't want to help their new neighbors or be helped by them in turn, but they're not even familiar with the concept:
neo-atlanteans: whoa! wraith! the fuck—uh, did we do that?
pegasus galaxy: *stony stares*
neo-atlanteans: right, sorry, sorry. but, hey—we're going to be around here for a while, we don't really want to die horribly, and the ancients left us some really cool toys! what do you say to a pooling of our resources?
pegasus galaxy: *stony stares + weapons*
neo-atlanteans: but . . . you don't want to die horribly either, right? i mean, right? we scratch your backs and you scratch ours, by which we mean a victory for one is a victory for all, isn't it? the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
pegasus galaxy: we do not understand your earth proverbs.
so i'm trying to understand the bitter every-planet-for-itself, i-will-sell-out-your-people-to-save-my-people attitude that permeates the galaxy. there is, first of all, an overwhelming feeling of insularity. it's unclear how much contact there is, on average, between the worlds; the athosians seem to know and visit everyone, but i wonder how often people in general use the stargates, how much movement there is; from what we've seen i'd say there's not much, especially for the average citizen of any given planet. on some worlds, e.g. proculus, planet kidkill, there hasn't been gate activity or outside visitors for hundreds of years; i got the same impression from hoff, that they engage very little with others and have no wish or need to. even on the more cosmopolitan planets—where there are markets, trade takes place, information is exchanged—people trade with each other, but they don't help each other. part of it is logistical: the periodic cullings purposely keep the populations small, preventing any large-scale growth, expansion, and interaction (and the wraith specifically target technological innovation), so basically the population is spread thinly throughtout the galaxy with no feasible way of bridging and filling the huge gaps for the long term; and so they've all turned inward to seek their own solutions—which they don't share. ten thousand years is an awfully long time to be culled again and again and never think, okay, maybe if we put our heads together we could come up with a successful defense sometime in the *next* ten thousand years—something that would destroy the wraith entirely, not just protect a planet at a time.
but that's the pegasus galaxy today; as for how it got to be this way, i heap most of the blame on the ancients. the ancients who set up strategic outposts for themselves and asked the adoring masses to keep their ZPMs warm for them; who defended the occasional planet with a force-field (and instituted an obligatory religous suicide-pact before they left) or experimental weapon (before it ripped a hole in the fabric of space-time and annihilated everyone on it); but who never actually let the humans in on their technology, never took responsibility for them or treated them as equals. the hologram in "rising" admits to their overconfidence; their snobbery and secrecy and exclusivity is evidenced explicitly in the strict non-interventionist policy of the ascended that chaya explains, and implictly in the lack of any galaxy-wide alliance, in the very fact that they were defeated by the wraith.
rodney says in "trinity" that the ancients possessed technology superior to the wraith, and that they lost the war simply because they were outnumbered—when they had the entire fucking GALAXY to swell their ranks. if they'd disseminated their technology and the means to produce it among the planets threatened by the wraith, i think the outcome of the war would have been drastically different. but the ancients never viewed the humans as viable ally candidates worthy of fighting alongside them; i think they didn't consider them fit to polish their puddlejumpers. the hologram mentioned that they woke the wraith themselves, and their narrative after that is a one-on-one battle, ancients vs. wraith, where the humans were casualties who just happened to be located between where the wraith were coming from and where they were going, ignorable and insignificant. stepping stones, like belgium.
and it would have had to be the ancients to approach everyone about banding together, no one else would have had the political scope and influence and means to bring it about (though—i think it was cowan who said something about the genii once being a great alliance of planets; i'd love to know when that was and what kind of power they had). i wonder if at some level everyone was waiting for it, for the call to arms and the battle plan. and when none came, when finally it was every planet for themselves against the wraith—the humans were slaughtered and the ancients ducked out. the ancients had TWO escape hatches—ascension and the wormhole to earth—and i bet they mourned the city but didn't give a thought to the rest of the galaxy when they left. i bet the ancients, on the whole, were cold motherfuckers.
(in fact, i bet the ancients were way more sinister than that. i just re-watched "the hot zone" and was reminded that the nanovirus they created wasn't for the wraith; it was a synthetically manufactured virus targeted at humans—humans without the ancient gene—that mimics the wraith phantasms. what use could they possibly have had for that?)
so the people of the pegasus galaxy are bitter and not so big on sharing, and you can't really blame them for any love-hate relationship they had or have with the atlanteans (who gave them this really great working model of secrecy and exclusivity): on some level they worshiped the ancients, and the ancients abandoned them. in the next ten thousand years, no comparable power emerged to dominate the galaxy. and then the earth expedition shows up, interlopers from another galaxy entirely who move in like they have a right to, like the second coming, bringing glad tidings and C4, trying to be the grand unifiers. the neo-atlanteans are arrogant in completely different ways from the old ones: the ancients didn't need anyone's help and certainly didn't offer theirs; the earthlings show up and say, "here is our help! it looks like you sure could use it! it is yours for the taking and reciprocation!" it's just that they're ten thousand years too late.
because while the hostility to the neo-atlanteans is jerky and often baffling, it's also unexpectedly and refreshingly anti-colonial—which other people basically have had to point out for me with small words and visual aids, but it's fascinating when they do. so, you know, shun the uppity newcomers, whatever. what's more surprising is the lack of cohesion among the worlds. it's completely counter-intuitive, because, yes, in a war you expect to find some profiteers and some mercenaries and some traitors, along the lines of the chancellor of the "condemned" planet and the taskmaster formerly known as kell; but in general people bond together when faced with an outside threat—a deadly, unambiguous threat—that affects them all. instead we find not just that a lot of the people don't want to help their new neighbors or be helped by them in turn, but they're not even familiar with the concept:
neo-atlanteans: whoa! wraith! the fuck—uh, did we do that?
pegasus galaxy: *stony stares*
neo-atlanteans: right, sorry, sorry. but, hey—we're going to be around here for a while, we don't really want to die horribly, and the ancients left us some really cool toys! what do you say to a pooling of our resources?
pegasus galaxy: *stony stares + weapons*
neo-atlanteans: but . . . you don't want to die horribly either, right? i mean, right? we scratch your backs and you scratch ours, by which we mean a victory for one is a victory for all, isn't it? the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
pegasus galaxy: we do not understand your earth proverbs.
so i'm trying to understand the bitter every-planet-for-itself, i-will-sell-out-your-people-to-save-my-people attitude that permeates the galaxy. there is, first of all, an overwhelming feeling of insularity. it's unclear how much contact there is, on average, between the worlds; the athosians seem to know and visit everyone, but i wonder how often people in general use the stargates, how much movement there is; from what we've seen i'd say there's not much, especially for the average citizen of any given planet. on some worlds, e.g. proculus, planet kidkill, there hasn't been gate activity or outside visitors for hundreds of years; i got the same impression from hoff, that they engage very little with others and have no wish or need to. even on the more cosmopolitan planets—where there are markets, trade takes place, information is exchanged—people trade with each other, but they don't help each other. part of it is logistical: the periodic cullings purposely keep the populations small, preventing any large-scale growth, expansion, and interaction (and the wraith specifically target technological innovation), so basically the population is spread thinly throughtout the galaxy with no feasible way of bridging and filling the huge gaps for the long term; and so they've all turned inward to seek their own solutions—which they don't share. ten thousand years is an awfully long time to be culled again and again and never think, okay, maybe if we put our heads together we could come up with a successful defense sometime in the *next* ten thousand years—something that would destroy the wraith entirely, not just protect a planet at a time.
but that's the pegasus galaxy today; as for how it got to be this way, i heap most of the blame on the ancients. the ancients who set up strategic outposts for themselves and asked the adoring masses to keep their ZPMs warm for them; who defended the occasional planet with a force-field (and instituted an obligatory religous suicide-pact before they left) or experimental weapon (before it ripped a hole in the fabric of space-time and annihilated everyone on it); but who never actually let the humans in on their technology, never took responsibility for them or treated them as equals. the hologram in "rising" admits to their overconfidence; their snobbery and secrecy and exclusivity is evidenced explicitly in the strict non-interventionist policy of the ascended that chaya explains, and implictly in the lack of any galaxy-wide alliance, in the very fact that they were defeated by the wraith.
rodney says in "trinity" that the ancients possessed technology superior to the wraith, and that they lost the war simply because they were outnumbered—when they had the entire fucking GALAXY to swell their ranks. if they'd disseminated their technology and the means to produce it among the planets threatened by the wraith, i think the outcome of the war would have been drastically different. but the ancients never viewed the humans as viable ally candidates worthy of fighting alongside them; i think they didn't consider them fit to polish their puddlejumpers. the hologram mentioned that they woke the wraith themselves, and their narrative after that is a one-on-one battle, ancients vs. wraith, where the humans were casualties who just happened to be located between where the wraith were coming from and where they were going, ignorable and insignificant. stepping stones, like belgium.
and it would have had to be the ancients to approach everyone about banding together, no one else would have had the political scope and influence and means to bring it about (though—i think it was cowan who said something about the genii once being a great alliance of planets; i'd love to know when that was and what kind of power they had). i wonder if at some level everyone was waiting for it, for the call to arms and the battle plan. and when none came, when finally it was every planet for themselves against the wraith—the humans were slaughtered and the ancients ducked out. the ancients had TWO escape hatches—ascension and the wormhole to earth—and i bet they mourned the city but didn't give a thought to the rest of the galaxy when they left. i bet the ancients, on the whole, were cold motherfuckers.
(in fact, i bet the ancients were way more sinister than that. i just re-watched "the hot zone" and was reminded that the nanovirus they created wasn't for the wraith; it was a synthetically manufactured virus targeted at humans—humans without the ancient gene—that mimics the wraith phantasms. what use could they possibly have had for that?)
so the people of the pegasus galaxy are bitter and not so big on sharing, and you can't really blame them for any love-hate relationship they had or have with the atlanteans (who gave them this really great working model of secrecy and exclusivity): on some level they worshiped the ancients, and the ancients abandoned them. in the next ten thousand years, no comparable power emerged to dominate the galaxy. and then the earth expedition shows up, interlopers from another galaxy entirely who move in like they have a right to, like the second coming, bringing glad tidings and C4, trying to be the grand unifiers. the neo-atlanteans are arrogant in completely different ways from the old ones: the ancients didn't need anyone's help and certainly didn't offer theirs; the earthlings show up and say, "here is our help! it looks like you sure could use it! it is yours for the taking and reciprocation!" it's just that they're ten thousand years too late.
no subject
it's unclear how much contact there is, on average, between the worlds
Another factor that contributes to the isolation of many Pegasus cultures is the fact that so many of the galaxy's stargates seem to be located in space. Off the top of my head, I count the Wraith planet from "Rising" and "Thirty-Eight Minutes," Proculus, Doranda from "Trinity," the planet in "Instinct," and Edwin in "The Hive."
As
'Course this only underscores your point that the Ancients were really the only ones with a good chance (or any at all) of uniting the galaxy against the Wraith. Though you have to wonder why the Ancients built the spacegates in the first place. Was it a way to make the natives beholden to them? A purposeful splintering of the humans in Pegasus? Some grand experiment to isolate certain cultures and study the impact of the stargate?
Then again, the Ancients might not have been responsible for the spacegates. It seems most stargates in the Milky Way system, which predates Pegasus, were nicely situated on terra firma, and I thought the whole purpose of having stargates was to faciliate travel between planets for pre-space cultures. It's possible the more enterprising Wraith—who in "The Siege" somehow dragged asteroids around—flung the stargates of the planets in their territories up where nobody but them would have access.
if [the Ancients]'d disseminated their technology and the means to produce it among the planets threatened by the wraith, i think the outcome of the war would have been drastically different.
I suppose, in defense of the Ancients, it's not entirely clear what the general technological level of Pegasus was when the war with the Wraith broke out. If the human cultures were too far behind, and the Wraith advance began rolling over worlds quickly, keeping the Ancients occupied with trying to contain them, there might not have been enough time to properly arm those in danger. For one, the more sensitive Ancient technologies (i.e. weapons) all seem to run off the ATA gene, which not many in Pegasus possess, and even supposing this could somehow be sidestepped without completely nullifying the technology's effectiveness, the Ancients would have to do the equivalent of teaching medieval knights how to drive a car.
In addition, I get the impression there simply weren't that many Ancients. If they were truly spread that thinly, I could see the Lord of the Flies planet, Doranda, the other outposts, and maybe even the planet of the mist people from "Home" being concentrated attempts to work out a viable means of defense against the Wraith with hopes of then applying this solution to other worlds. The shield from "Childhood's End" faced impossible logistic problems, and Doranda was destroyed; the other attempts likely met similar ends. Meanwhile the Wraith are razing worlds and gathering strength, making it harder and harder to defeat them.
Finally, the Ancients couldn't hold out and fell back to Atlantis. Because while they "seeded" life in Pegasus, which in a way makes the humans... their experimental test tube babies, Pegasus and all the people in it weren't important enough to spend more Ancient lives on what seemed to be a pointless endeavor when, as you said, they could escape. This is selfish, yes, but understandable.
no subject
Another factor that contributes to the isolation of many Pegasus cultures is the fact that so many of the galaxy's stargates seem to be located in space.
YES. i thought about this too, but i'm not sure exactly what it means. i like your wraith-removal theory, though the ancients had their puddlejumpers and it would have been all the same to them; i also think it would take a much more delicate and time-consuming operation to uproot the gate, unharmed, and set it in orbit still functioning; if i were actually in the pegasus galaxy i could test your theory by searching nearby planets for a gate-less DHD or evidence of its removal! it would make sense for the wraith to limit, absolutely, all space-ready technology, but from what we've seen they stop development well in advance of that—i.e. no pegasus civilization has made it anywhere near that level.
Without spaceships, there's no access to these worlds, and I have to wonder whether many learned this lesson the hard way—by sending people through the stargate and seeing if they ever returned alive as opposed to dying horribly of explosive decompression.
teyla said to sheppard in "sanctuary" that proculus's gate was in orbit and therefore her people would never have been able to visit the planet, and i remember thinking at the time, how would they have known? really, stargate travel must be terrifying, all the time, because it's a completely blind entry—you can't even send a scout to report back, so even if something *did* happen to the first wave of people you sent, you wouldn't know *what.* i'm thinking especially of an entire genii squadron (squadron?) walking into atlantis's iris. that would be a damn good deterrent to exploration, which makes me wonder how teyla et al. know which gates are safe to dial; i'm guessing a combination of trial-and-error, as you suggest, and a very long cultural knowledge handed down—leading back, i guess, to the ancients themselves. they had to have shown people how to work the gates at some point, right?
For one, the more sensitive Ancient technologies (i.e. weapons) all seem to run off the ATA gene, which not many in Pegasus possess.
a couple of things (and this might be my ignorance of the larger stargate canon shining through): when they say the ancients seeded new life, what does that MEAN? they spawned new worlds? they bioengineered, as you say, experimental test-tube babies? there was (humanoid) life already in the pegasus galaxy and they stepped in to add their superior genes to the mix? and what exactly *is* the ATA gene—did all ancients have it? if so, and if they're related, directly and genetically, to the overall human population of pegasus, then some percentage of those humans should have the gene as well; is it the same situation as on earth—a small segment of the population, and most of that in a weak form? has there been any indication that any pegasus native has (or could have) the ancient gene?
rodney's pretty sure the ancients developed the ATA technology in direct response to the wraith, to shut them out of it; of course, we only have his theory to go on, but it seems sound (if they'd developed it prior to the wraith, then it would have been for the purposes of shutting the *humans* out (or other unfriendlies, i.e. the ones running around the milky way? again, i'm unfamiliar with stargate canon) which would entail a whole other set of implications about human technological capability and the relationship they had with the ancients—and vice-versa), in which case i see your point about midieval knights driving cars—though i'd still be struck then by the gaping disparity between the ancients and everybody else; if they'd been sharing technology and culture all along, it wouldn't be an issue.
This is selfish, yes, but understandable.
yes, exactly; though my view of it is more like, this is understandable, but selfish.
no subject
I say we ponder over the mysteries of SGA together! ^_____^
i also think it would take a much more delicate and time-consuming operation to uproot the gate, unharmed, and set it in orbit still functioning...
Agreed. Since I never watched SG-1 and SGA usually takes the stargates for granted, I have no idea what would need to be done in order to move a stargate into space without trashing it. I gather that the stargates are pretty durable though, and the Wraith have already demonstrated a certain facility with Ancient technology (notably in "The Defiant One"), so I think it'd be possible. Not only to control access to the stargate and cut off a means of escape or communication but to prevent the desperate from burying the thing or whatever.
Now that I think about it, assuming the Wraith could do it, putting the stargate in orbit is such a good idea there has to be an explanation for why there aren't more spacegates. Hmm.
makes me wonder how teyla et al. know which gates are safe to dial; i'm guessing a combination of trial-and-error, as you suggest, and a very long cultural knowledge handed down—leading back, i guess, to the ancients themselves.
I was pretty bored and feeling geeky when I typed up these comments, so I did try to come up with ways the Athosians could've used to check stargate addresses for viability before sending someone through. First, I thought MALP-on-a-stick. That was quickly shot down when I realized there's been no sign the Athosians have anything similar to cameras and that the stargate wouldn't rematerialize something on the other side until the entire thing had gone through on your side, which would then make it impossible to retrieve anything. And the Athosians don't seem to have radio equivalents either. Besides trial-and-error and knowledge passed down through the generations, all I could picture was a trained dog/bird/whatever that would go through the stargate and come back before the wormhole closed. It's that or a boomerang device of some sort...
when they say the ancients seeded new life, what does that MEAN?
From the Stargate Handbook (http://www.stargatehandbook.org), part of Melia's (a.k.a. the hologram lady from "Rising") little speech:Sadly, I'm probably as ignorant of the larger SG canon as you (the blind leading the blind, lol), but from what I can gather, humans will eventually be the Ancients and, presumably, with all the fancy ATA stuff. The Ancients sped the evolutionary process and weighted the subsequent development of life in favor of beings like them wherever—Milky Way and Pegasus—they found empty worlds. They possibly also terraformed planets to support human-Ancient life.
no subject
"aha!" i thought. "what a great idea! why don't the pegasus humans do that? they're pretty desperate already." and then i remembered that the wraith don't actually use the stargates to descend upon the planets they're culling, they drive their big-ass hive ships through hyperspace and drop from the sky. as seen in "letters from pegasus" they then dial out from the planet's stargate to keep anyone from escaping.
Besides trial-and-error and knowledge passed down through the generations, all I could picture was a trained dog/bird/whatever that would go through the stargate and come back before the wormhole closed. It's that or a boomerang device of some sort...
the MALP was really the logical action on the part of the SGC, a non-human first-toe-in-the-pond. but even animals and boomerangs wouldn't work: wormholes only go one way; you can't go through and then back without waiting for the gate to close and then dialing again.
thanks for the links! honestly, i should do some homework, though their science makes me cringe and the idea of humans being further along the evolutionary path to ancienthood makes me laugh, or possibly cry, or even both at the same time.
no subject
Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. ^^;;
Would explain why—assuming the Wraith are responsible for it in the first place—not every Pegasus stargate is in orbit. I'm thinking maybe certain worlds have spacegates for security reasons. From "Rising," it seems the Wraith land the hive ships on a planet before going into hibernation; perhaps before they do this, they drag that planet's stargate into space to prevent hapless humans from stumbling across hive ships protected by only a Keeper and her guards. Then the spacegate planets we've seen thus far were host to a hibernating hive at some point during the 10,000 years after the Ancients left.
even animals and boomerangs wouldn't work: wormholes only go one way; you can't go through and then back without waiting for the gate to close and then dialing again.
Damn! If a civilization isn't capable of building a MALP equivalent that leaves sending people through with orders to turn around and dial back. The risk of explosive decompression probably discourages exploration, huh?
the idea of humans being further along the evolutionary path to ancienthood makes me laugh, or possibly cry, or even both at the same time.
Personally, I don't feel one or another about this. The science is always going to be bad, so I just accept it, try my best to retcon it away, and move on. It's what I do. ;)
no subject
but that wouldn't totally explain it. i've been trying to think up ways and reasons for the ancients to have established gates in space originally, rather than the wraith removing them there (because i'm contrary like that), and i suppose this might be a reason against the wraith theory&#namely that if the wraith simply took moved *all* the stargates into space, it would effectively isolate every planet without spaceships (which would be ALL THE PLANETS), allow the hive ships to hibernate undisturbed, and leave this awesome means of interplanetary travel for the wraith alone to exploit. so why would they have moved some gates but not all of them?
The risk of explosive decompression probably discourages exploration, huh?
EXACTLY. exactly. which makes me either admire the athosians greatly, or wonder why they have intel other planets don't.
no subject
so why would [the Wraith] have moved some gates but not all of them?
Up-thread, you wrote:
i also think it would take a much more delicate and time-consuming operation to uproot the gate, unharmed, and set it in orbit still functioning...
Assuming this is the case, one possible explanation is that the Wraith are too busy feeding, warring amongst themselves, and hibernating to bother turning every stargate on every planet in the galaxy into a spacegate when chances are most Pegasus civilizations will suffer a major culling before attaining space travel anyways. The spacegates serve only as an added security measure for hibernating Wraith hives. This is perhaps optional, too, because I don't remember the stargate on the planet with the hive in "Underground" being in space—though I suppose that particular hive might not have been hibernating as Sheppard's team and the Genii thought but making a quick stop to feed. Or something. Was the thing covered in vegetation like the one in "Rising"?
Now that I think about it, the Wraith probably don't want the humans to get too isolated. Space travel or any other challenge to Wraith power would be a big no-no, but other technological advancements and cultural exchange would allow humans to proliferate throughout Pegasus, living longer and healthier lives. The Wraith would love that, of course.
On a somewhat related note, I recently watched "Rising" with a friend of mine and noticed an odd protrusion on the spacegate. Perhaps where the stargate was once affixed to the ground?
Regarding the Athosians and stargate exploration, either Teyla's people are very brave and/or an extensive record of safe addresses was left by the advanced race they used to be. That is, if "the city of the ancestors" refers not to the Ancients but to the Athosians as they were before the Wraith drove them to a nomadic lifestyle. I never could figure out which it was.
Part 2/2
Wanna be spoiled? Then highlight away!
So, there will be more on the ATA gene. Please, please be good. :p
rodney's pretty sure the ancients developed the ATA technology in direct response to the wraith, to shut them out of it; of course, we only have his theory to go on, but it seems sound
The human-Ancient evolutionary connection aside, I wonder if the genetic key wasn't an accident of sorts. See, the hybrid physical/mental/emotional interface the Ancients designed into their technology seems to me a logical extension of a natural impulse to make technology as user-friendly as possible. I could see the Ancients trying to get their technology to respond to individuals through DNA recognition and unknowingly writing in the ATA gene lock. That their technology now requires a genetic key is a bit surprising at first, but the benefits in security are immediately obvious. At which point, the Ancients start refining the ATA system.
Re: Part 2/2
I wonder if the genetic key wasn't an accident of sorts. See, the hybrid physical/mental/emotional interface the Ancients designed into their technology seems to me a logical extension of a natural impulse to make technology as user-friendly as possible.
that's . . . huh, that's an interesting theory. though right away once you talk about DNA recognition, that immediately strikes me as an issue of security, not mere ease of use. i mean, we have DNA-recognition technology here on earth (or haven't we gotten that far yet? if nothing else we have retinal scans, fingerprint and handprint recognition, etc.), and that's absolutely what it's for. stuff we want *everybody* to be able to use we make dependent on motion-sensors, heat sensors, etc. DNA recognition is going to be way more specific from the outset; if anything, they would have had to work to make it respond to everyone with a certain gene, not just to any single individual—and again, it was a gene that *they* had and the rest of the galaxy didn't.
Re: Part 2/2
I'll have to be extra careful! I've been posting in the new episode discussion threads at the GW forums for a while now and sometimes forget Skiffy hasn't started the second half of S2 yet. Got lucky with those spoilers. Whew! ^^;;
the knowledge that we're going to be returning to the ATA gene (though probably in a way that has nothing to do with actual genetics, woe woe) is tantalizing; i'm curious to see how it plays out. heh, for the love of GOD, please let it be good.
WORD. The whole ATA gene thing can't be avoided forever—though damn if TPTB haven't done a pretty good job of that so far. Maybe if the entire fandom prays hard and concentrates on sending good science vibes to Vancouver, we'll get something that's ‹gasp› realistic. Or at least something that'll be easy to retcon.
though right away once you talk about DNA recognition, that immediately strikes me as an issue of security, not mere ease of use.
Hmm. I was thinking more along the lines of personalizing technology. And you can't tailor technology to an individual much more than DNA recognition and the Ancient hybrid interface. I thought maybe the Ancients didn't intend for their technology to only recognize the DNA of certain people, but that they designed the stuff to scan the DNA of all users and modify functions based on the information recorded. It just happened that most, if not all, users were Ancients and a coding flaw (or the very aware and responsive OS or whatever) picked up on the baseline ATA gene and embedded it in the system. The Ancients, then, didn't know about the gene lock until the next non-Ancient tried to access the technology and couldn't. The security benefits are obvious, so the Ancients decided to keep things that way.
Actually, with the exception of the ATA gene, Ancient security seems rather lax. The Atlantis stargate has the shield, but the IDC system was brought by the expedition and the room itself is a bit too pretty and not so defensible. As is the rest of the city, really. There are also no automated security systems that we know of besides the quarantine procedure. And, apparently, anybody who knows where to find the right panel can open it and start rewiring crucial systems.
Re: Part 2/2
huh, interesting. i have absolutely no idea, but it's an interesting theory.
Actually, with the exception of the ATA gene, Ancient security seems rather lax.
totally and completely lax to the point of nonexistence. the show seems to go back and forth on the ancients' stance on failsafes—the system was incredibly vulnerable! the system was incredibly redundant! (that joke never gets old)—depending on what the episode calls for, so it's hard to say. i get the impression the ancients had complete faith in the city's shield (which was obviously rewarded, or they would have done other things), which rodney tells us explicitly in "the storm"; but they also have the weapons chair and the drones, and the puddlejumpers are all weapons-equipped. honestly, i imagine the ancients were so ridiculously dominant that they never had anybody to defend *against* until the wraith; and when the wraith finally showed up, the shield was ample protection against them. i don't know what the ancient equivalent of an IDC would have been, but the mere fact that their gate had a shield implies that they didn't let in just anybody who dialed; and if they didn't, then they would have needed (and presumably had) a method of discerning who was doing the dialing.
Re: Part 2/2
IMO, failsafes are something else entirely. Security restricts access; failsafes prevent the people who already have access from doing stupid things like erasing the entire mainframe or overloading the power systems or spreading a deadly contagion.
the mere fact that their gate had a shield implies that they didn't let in just anybody who dialed
Point. I didn't think of that. ^^;;
At any rate, I think you're probably right: the Ancients had no one to defend against until the Wraith. The humans hadn't advanced enough, and the Ancients were allies with the other three great races.* So, Ancient security isn't as tight as war and necessity would force, but the Ancients still developed weapons and shields.
The ATA gene lock remains, I think, the single best security idea the Ancients ever came up with or stumbled upon. I'm less and less sure it was in response to the Wraith though—the timing is wrong. The Ancients didn't encounter the Wraith until long after they left the Milky Way for Pegasus, but the Antarctica control chair is keyed to the gene. Conclusion: ATA must have been developed before the Ancients left Earth.
Plus, looking at the timeline, the city's strict quarantine protocols might have been put in place in response to the Ancients suffering from that plague back on Earth. I can't remember when exactly the Ancients started to get sick, but if it was before they left for Pegasus, they'd be sensitized to biological threats in a way they aren't to attack by other races.
*Why were the Ancients, Asgard, Nox, and Furlings in an alliance again? Don't these pacts usually grow out of conflict?
no subject
Well, I don't think the Atlantis expedition is trying to be arrogant. The root of their diplomatic gaffes is ignorance (and letting Sheppard negotiate so much, never mind having him and McKay on the same off-world team). They simply don't know any better, and the reception most of the Pegasus galaxy gives them doesn't help them learn.
And, frankly, the neo-Atlanteans (that's a great name!) probably do have the best chance of working the technologies of Atlantis and whatever else the Ancients left behind. They've got the ATA gene, which is apparently the product of more evolution, and the benefit of knowledge developed without the threat of the Wraith hanging over them. I think the fact that they're willing to trade all this spectacular science and technology, plus favors, for food, shelter, any help against the Wraith, and other mundane things is a pretty convincing show of good will.
Or it would be. If the neo-Atlanteans didn't have such terrible luck, and the Pegasus galaxy wasn't mass traumatized by the Wraith and a war that happened 10,000 years ago.
Oh, and, um, I'm not a stalker or anything. I got here through
no subject
I think the fact that they're willing to trade all this spectacular science and technology, plus favors, for food, shelter, any help against the Wraith, and other mundane things is a pretty convincing show of good will.
that's what gets me ranting in the first place—that they come in peace (oh my god, i just typed that unironically), they're honestly looking for friends and help, and they have the city of atlantis at their disposal, and the genii et al. (but especially the genii) don't say "awesome, an ally," they think "must humiliate and destroy. oh, they mentioned explosives, let's steal that first."
bad luck and trauma! i want a t-shirt from the pegasus galaxy tourism board, because that would totally be their motto.
no subject
LOL. There are a few hints that the neo-Atlanteans are trying to change their approach to first contact. For one, though Sheppard, as leader of the flagship exploration team, is still responsible for the first meeting with many civilizations, he defers to Weir on actually making trade arrangements in S2. John's a smart boy but, really, he fails at negotiation. Most notably in "Underground" and "The Storm," both of which brought the Genii down on their heads. I like to think all off-world teams now make contact and see if anyone's interested in trading, then report back to Weir. Depending on initial impressions and this first exchange, Weir might go off-world to broker a deal. This, I think, is a somewhat more sensitive approach.
Of course, the neo-Atlanteans can afford to be more diplomatic now that they aren't stranded in Pegasus and the threat of a Wraith attack isn't hanging over their heads like a sword.
Besides, not everybody wants to kill them on sight! Not even the Genii. At first. I'll have to watch "Underground" again, but I think the Genii and the neo-Atlanteans weren't getting along too bad until Sheppard and McKay stumbled over the secret underground bunker. That was smoothed over... only to have the situation nearly explode again over the waking of the Wraith. Sheppard managed to work around even that, but the bridges were fully burned by the time the strike force returned from the hive ship.
OTOH, the Athosians have been very kind, as has Ronon, though that doesn't say much for the rest of his people. From "Critical Mass," we know Atlantis keeps in contact with the kids from "Childhood's End," and the natives in "Letters From Pegasus" and "Instinct" also weren't too bad. The neo-Atlanteans even had a pretty productive partnership with the Hoffans, as well as a promising start with the Olesians. For a while.
...!
You know what? It just occurred to me (yeah, yeah, everyone thought of this years ago) that all that wonderful technology the neo-Atlanteans use, besides being strange and thus intimidating, might raise hackles because the only comparable technology most in Pegasus have seen or can remember was Wraith. This is, of course, the worst association possible. I'm thinking the Pegasus natives need to personally experience how helpful the neo-Atlanteans are in fighting off the Wraith before they'll fully extend the hand of friendship. Time to start the rumors, people! "Ah, yes! You mean that time we blew away five hive ships...?"
no subject
actually, we haven't seen that much first contact in S2. i haven't seen "epiphany" or "critical mass" yet, so if we have first contact there, don't tell me; but out of the first eleven episodes, only "condemned" and "instinct" were classic sheppard's team goes offworld and tries to make nice. sheppard didn't get a chance to negotiate with anyone in "condemned" (though eventually he made a good show of bargaining for their lives); and i don't remember what kind of negotiation they were looking to do in "instinct," but that's kinda the point—they were distracted by greater events. do you just mean that since we haven't seen sheppard doing any negotiation, he must be leaving it to weir?
his negotiation in "underground" and "the storm" is wildly unsuccessful, but it's as much a factor of negotiating with hostile, unwilling parties as his skills, or lack thereof (plus there's the matter of plot purposes: if you'd sent weir, or any good negotiator, that would have sunk the premises of the episodes). that said, it seems that sheppard approaches negotiations from a military rather than diplomatic POV—not that he's *hostile*, but when he comes in good faith he expects the same in return; he makes few allowances for posturing and has little patience for it (see also: ronon in "trinity") and grows quickly—and obviously—incredulous, and then pissed off, at their selfishness and bad faith. so yes, in that sense he would be much better off as backup for an actual negotiator.
I think the Genii and the neo-Atlanteans weren't getting along too bad until Sheppard and McKay stumbled over the secret underground bunker.
well, yes, for values of "getting along" that include "we will not kill you before you can leave this planet." at the outset of negotiation cowan said the medicine, etc. wasn't going to be good enough, and even teyla was like, "wow, you guys aren't usually such incredible jerks, what gives?" and then later they want the medicine *and* the C4, which makes everyone on the team say, "o.O" then later they find the secret underground bunker and it all goes to hell, but the genii did not give off goodwill vibes at any point.
I'm thinking the Pegasus natives need to personally experience how helpful the neo-Atlanteans are in fighting off the Wraith before they'll fully extend the hand of friendship. Time to start the rumors, people! "Ah, yes! You mean that time we blew away five hive ships...?"
ooh, the association-of-fear factor, i never thought of that. except—well, we've seen no evidence of it, and we *have* seen evidence of the opposite. i've never gotten the impression that anyone in pegasus thinks the neo-atlanteans are in any way in league with the wraith; and they all remember the ancients (that is, they have cultural memory), so they might be intimidated by their technological advantage (though, again, they never act the part), but they shouldn't really associate it with the wraith. and the biggest argument against it is the genii again: the genii have first-hand experience with the ancient technology and actually saw and spent some time in the city itself, but they still only want to kill off the expedition members, or enslave them. at the very least they want to steal their technology and use it themselves, rather than work with the neo-atlanteans, even (or especially) when they 1) can't benefit from it and 2) it'll sabotage the neo-atlanteans efforts. see, especially: kolya going after the ZPM in "the brotherhood." spreading the "we blew away five hive ships! how do you like us now?" rumors certainly couldn't hurt, but at that point you have to wonder why the humans in pegasus have to be hit over the head with the "we have superior technology that has a very good chance of defeating the wraith" stick so hard and so often before they believe it, or care.
no subject
Not so much, no. Though in "Condemned," Sheppard specifically defers to Weir on making trade arrangements with the Olesians. He introduced the neo-Atlanteans and felt out whether anybody wanted to trade, what might be traded, and whether there'd be any "moral hiccups." After the initial meeting, he radioed Weir, got from her the order to continue, then went to the magistrate with:
"Well, Dr. Elizabeth Weir will be the one to begin official negotiations with. That's really her thing."
Since this was the procedure Sheppard and the flagship recon team followed, I figured it was a general change in policy. This reading is somewhat supported by Lorne reporting back to Weir in "The Lost Boys" with the news that so-and-so people don't seem interested in trading.
Sheppard et al. weren't past the meet-and-greet stage with the villagers in "Instinct" before finding out there was a Wraith loose in the woods. At which point, Sheppard went into military mode and mounted a search, any and all trade sidelined.
that said, it seems that sheppard approaches negotiations from a military rather than diplomatic POV
Yeah, that's what I meant. Though I think Sheppard personally puts a lot of stock in friendship; he'd be willing to go to great lengths to help a friend in need, and he expects the same from those who consider him friend. In negotiating the evacuation site for Atlantis in "The Storm," Sheppard seemed like he fundamentally couldn't understand why he was being asked for more than an IOU. I think he badly wants to believe the best of people and, when disappointed, he reacts... badly. Which is to say things tend to degenerate into violence or the threat thereof. So, no, not the ideal guy to send out on a first contact negotiation.
As you pointed out, Ronon tends to take the same view as Sheppard (with an even shorter fuse and much less optimism) and McKay... well. That leaves Teyla to settle all the disputes and trouble her teammates get in, lol.
at the outset of negotiation cowan said the medicine, etc. wasn't going to be good enough, and even teyla was like, "wow, you guys aren't usually such incredible jerks, what gives?"
I got that the Genii were playing hard. The neo-Atlanteans had much to give and were desperate for food. This is not out of any ill will but aggressively advocating Genii interests. The Genii were willing to talk and be allies—had negotiations progressed without the Genii feeling threatened by Sheppard and McKay discovering the bunker, with possibly several more exchanges back and forth, the Genii might've backed off a bit.
This is a process Teyla shows an understanding of in "Trinity." Though there, as in "Underground," her affiliation with the neo-Atlanteans and all that shiny made it harder to come to an agreement because the other party expected more out of the trade from the outset.
Hmm. Maybe if the neo-Atlanteans had initiated all first contacts after "Rising" wearing Athosian clothing and carrying only concealed weapons, the Pegasus galaxy wouldn't be so demanding and, when those demands couldn't be met, hostile.
i've never gotten the impression that anyone in pegasus thinks the neo-atlanteans are in any way in league with the wraith
Not so much in league with the Wraith as capable of taking the Wraith's places as overlords of Pegasus. The Wraith are an example of the kind of domination a race with superior technology can force. So, the natives are apt to mistrust the good intentions of the neo-Atlanteans because, hey, why aren't they trying to conquer us? In order to fully gain the trust of these people, the neo-Atlanteans have to show that not only are they willing to fight and defeat the Wraith but that afterwards they'll still play nice and won't use the leverage them being the best Wraith killers in the galaxy would give them.
Of course, the sad thing is that the neo-Atlanteans are genuinely looking for allies and friends, not subjects or slaves. Only nobody believes them, and I don't think anyone will until the Wraith attack, they die fighting the Wraith alone, and they make it clear the offer of friendship is still open.
Man, that sucks.
no subject
ah, okay; i've seen "condemned" exactly once, and most of my memory of the episode is taken up with the team getting dirty and tied up, rodney's lying/crisis of confidence, ronon's need for orders, and john abandoning a planet to the wraith. but that all makes sense!
Sheppard seemed like he fundamentally couldn't understand why he was being asked for more than an IOU. I think he badly wants to believe the best of people and, when disappointed, he reacts... badly.
word, word, word. of course, *i* can't understand why he was being asked for more than an IOU either—it's one of the things that prompted me to make this post in the first place.
The Genii were willing to talk and be allies—had negotiations progressed without the Genii feeling threatened by Sheppard and McKay discovering the bunker, with possibly several more exchanges back and forth, the Genii might've backed off a bit.
possibly. but more telling than their hard-driving bargains was their attitude which was basically JERKY all the way through. but i don't know—maybe they would have revealed their squishy nougat centers given enough time to thaw.
Hmm. Maybe if the neo-Atlanteans had initiated all first contacts after "Rising" wearing Athosian clothing and carrying only concealed weapons, the Pegasus galaxy wouldn't be so demanding and, when those demands couldn't be met, hostile.
i—maybe? they certainly met with their share of hostility when they represented themselves honestly. though the questions might arise as to where exactly the athosians came across synthetically manufactured medicines and brand-name energy bars. and it still doesn't answer my basic question of why the peoples decided to make enemies when friends would have been so much easier—and a hell of a lot more materially rewarding (in the short and long runs).
In order to fully gain the trust of these people, the neo-Atlanteans have to show that not only are they willing to fight and defeat the Wraith but that afterwards they'll still play nice and won't use the leverage them being the best Wraith killers in the galaxy would give them.
if that's the thought process taking place in the minds of the pegasus natives, it would explain a few things, but it would still be incredibly short-sighted and PERPLEXING. the status quo in pegasus is that every few generations, life-sucking space vampires descend on just about every planet in the galaxy with their terrifically advanced spaceships and cull most of the population, leaving only enough to reproduce for the next culling in a few decades or a hundred years or so. it's been the status quo for ten thousand freaking years: excellent chance of you AND everyone you know and love getting beamed aboard alien spaceships, stored in cocoons for an indefinite amount of time, and taken out later to have your life sucked out of you through your chest—which looks incredibly painful.
so i understand the proverb the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, but this particular scenario would go something like this:
neo-atlanteans: whoa! wraith! okay, we might be able to do something about this.
pegasus galaxy: *scorn and derision*
neo-atlanteans: well, at the very least we have *ideas*! i mean, we could put our heads together: our technology with your experience . . .
pegasus galaxy: oh, and when that's all over you think you can just WALTZ ON IN and we'll kiss your stupid earth-boots? we don't THINK so.
neo-atlanteans: um, boot-kissing is nice, but a "thanks for defeating the life-sucking aliens!" would be good enough. maybe some cookies if they just *happened* to be coming out of the oven.
pegasus galaxy: riiiight. but you can't guarantee a complete lack of future subjugation and slavery, can you? we'd rather not take the chance, kthx.
neo-atlanteans: but. LIFE-SUCKING ALIENS.
pegasus galaxy: hey, the devil you know . . .
neo-atlanteans: oh, of ALL THE EARTH PROVERBS YOU COULD KNOW.
i mean, there's paranoia, there's xenophobia, and then there's WHAT DO YOU POSSIBLY HAVE LEFT TO LOSE.
no subject
Hahaha. I only had the vaguest impression that Sheppard reported in to Weir before doing any negotiation. Of course, I didn't bother to watch the episode again myself; I copied and pasted from the transcripts at GateNoise (http://www.moon-catchin.net/gatenoise/sgatranscripts.htm).
Better the devil you know...
if that's the thought process taking place in the minds of the pegasus natives, it would explain a few things, but it would still be incredibly short-sighted and PERPLEXING.
Hmm... ‹thinky›
Okay. Perhaps 10,000 years of domination by the Wraith have left the human natives of Pegasus with so little that they defend what they have all the more fiercely?
Do not betray your people and your family. Death before dishonor.
Which is to say, when Teyla says so-and-so are a proud people, she really isn't kidding. The people of Pegasus would rather die fighting the Wraith then ally with the neo-Atlanteans to defeat the Wraith forever if it means a life of servitude after the dust settles. And the cultures in the best position to resist the Wraith—for example, the Genii, who are in addition very militant—would be the least willing to bend unless the neo-Atlanteans lay everything on the table from the start.
I dunno. Does that work? :p
no subject
In SG1 the most advanced cultures are the least willing to share their technology with us because they've seen the destructiveness caused when they've given advanced technology away in the past, to cultures who haven't used how to not use it to destroy others and themselves, so from that perspective it makes sense that the Ancients would be careful about sharing their technology. If everyone's fighting with each other, a la earth, that's pretty bad too (as Beckett sort of implies in Poisoning the Well).
Also, considering that it seems like the wraith can read minds, that would lead people to be very secretive about who they share what information with, especially information about their technology level or plans for resistance.
no subject
i can see that—though it's still exclusive and snobbish and paternalistic. and once the wraith came, that threat was so massive and immediate that i would think eradicating them would override any concerns about what the humans might do with the technology otherwise, after the fact; except that the ancients were so (in their own words) overconfident that they didn't feel it was a compromise they had to make.
Also, considering that it seems like the wraith can read minds, that would lead people to be very secretive about who they share what information with, especially information about their technology level or plans for resistance.
good point. though (to play devil's advocate here) it's hard to say whether the humans know about that particular talent in the first place; and since it only works in very close contact (i.e. after capture), i don't see why they wouldn't be able to develop self-destruct protocols (as, in fact, the wraith have) to be followed in the event of capture—maybe not cyanide pills or explosives in their armor, but poison or knives or whatever to protect the information. in wartime spies and soldiers always carry that burden.
no subject
If the ancients did decide that the urgency required sharing their tech (and they did admit to being over confident) and there was time to do so, that has its own dangers. Because the wraith are really good at acquiring and adapting ancient technology. Maybe they were afraid of the technology like the galactic hyper drive engines and strongest weapons falling into wraith hands?
Thanks for your post and this discussion! I love talking about Atlantis...
no subject
that could certainly be the case. but if you're the ancients, at some point don't you have to consider the possibility that losing your monopoly over your shiny technology takes a backseat to, you know, defeating your life-sucking enemies? if you're the ancients obviously you *didn't* have to, but then—you lost. overconfident and control freaks.
heh, i could talk about this stuff ALL DAY. thank you!
no subject
Though, one thing, in 'Hot Zone' I'm pretty sure the geeks concluded that the nano-virus was of unknown origin, as in not Ancient or Wraith. So, it wasn't something the original-Atlantians came up with.
no subject
rodney concludes that they've found an ancient viral lab; its computers don't appear to be networked into the other systems and only contain data on what took place in that lab; they don't know whether the ancients were studying the viruses or actively creating them.
they agree that the wraith wouldn't have created the virus (rodney: it would be like ranchers giving cattle mad cow disease, i don't buy it) and then consider the possibility of the ancients creating it:
elizabeth: you did come across them in an *ancient* lab
rodney: wiping out the wraith's food supply as a last-ditch consideration?
carson: i don't believe that for a moment, the ancients would never create something like this.
rodney: it doesn't explain the visions either.
they theorize that the virus was designed to kill humans—non-ATA-carrying humans—and at the end all they do is confirm that the virus couldn't be wraith—not that it couldn't be ancient:
rodney: on further investigation i think we can rule out that they were created by the wraith. they're different than any wraith technology we've come across thus far.
john: if not the wraith, then who made 'em?
rodney: i honestly don't know. but whoever they were, let's just hope that they're not still around.
i'll admit that i'm disinclined to think well of the ancients, but we establish means and opportunity for them; all we're unsure of is a motive, and rodney provides a possible one. and though he couldn't explain the visions, i think it would have been a great way to kill off the humans (if that's what they were trying to do) while making them think the wraith were responsible—even in "hide and seek" we saw that anything that reminded the athosians of the wraith, especially their illusions, was enough to convince them the wraith were at hand. there's also the fact that at the super-text level the wraith and the ancients are presented as organic vs. artificial (i.e. mechanical, inorganic); a nanovirus just feels like an ancient thing to do.
no subject
there's also the fact that at the super-text level the wraith and the ancients are presented as organic vs. artificial (i.e. mechanical, inorganic)...
Ah, but are they? ;)
Keep in mind that the Ancient technology initializes and often operates off a gene, responsive to thought and emotion—rather biological and organic concepts if you ask me. Plus, with the ATA gene and the hybrid interface, I definitely get the vibe that the Ancient technology might be aware, if not sharply sentient.
The Wraith technology, OTOH, seems to have organic roots but mimics artificial materials. (Okay, I realize that's because the art department built the Wraith sets and darts and such out of foam or whatever, but let's stay in-universe, shall we? :p) The Wraith ships are very sleek and powerful—to such a degree that I suspect the Wraith incorporated technology from the more advanced civilizations they'd destroyed.
So, in a way, the Wraith and Ancient technologies are the same thing dressed in different packages.
i think [the "Hot Zone" nanovirus] would have been a great way to kill off the humans (if that's what [the Ancients] were trying to do) while making them think the wraith were responsible
Why would the Ancients bother to kill the human population of Pegasus when they can pack up and leave for the Milky Way, the sunk city cutting off access to the only stargate capable of dialing another galaxy?
Besides, while I don't think the Ancients were perfect, I rather think it'd be more interesting to find the Ancients were no more good or evil than us because they are us and we are them.
That, of course, still leaves the question of who created the nanovirus. For a little while, I speculated about the involvement of another alien—in the non-human-Ancient sense—race. I thought, "Hey, what about the Furlings? Who were in the great four-way alliance with the Ancients, the Asgard, and the Nox?" They would feel no attachment to the humans, would presumably have the technology, and would want to spare their Ancient allies—hence the ATA gene granting immunity. The Asgard and the Nox have both made appearances, and so has Furling technology, but the Furlings themselves have remained but ghosts.
At which point, I stopped thinking so hard about it. ^^;;
no subject
even after reading your arguments against—and they're all good points, on which i have been musing extensively—i'd have to say, yeah, they are. it's true that you don't get much more fundamentally biological than DNA-recognition technology, but keep in mind the actual practice of it: bloodless, sterile, cerebral. the technology recognizes your body, but it interacts with your mind; and in general the ancients seem to have continually bent their efforts toward complete dissociation from both their emotions and their physical bodies—i mean, their greatest goal and triumph was ascension.
it also makes sense on a super-text level to establish these kinds of dichotomies, even as they undermine them subtly. i don't know which of the wraith ships could be considered sleek except for the darts, which are what i would certainly call aerodynamic, but not sleek; and the inside of it was so dark and close and MEMBRANOUS that it couldn't have been more womb-like if they'd tried. i don't know if they were trying. the biological accents are so obvious all over the hive ships (the webbing for gates, the skin-like walls and bone-like (or nerve-like) conduits beneath it, etc.; somebody wrote a fic in which the hive ships weren't merely organic in appearance, they were *alive*) that i can't imagine they're accidental, though it's possibly they (the set designers et al.) are trying to suggest caves and the wraith's iratus origins. but compare it to the ancient parallel, the aurora: gleaming, metallic, artificial, sterile.
Why would the Ancients bother to kill the human population of Pegasus when they can pack up and leave for the Milky Way, the sunk city cutting off access to the only stargate capable of dialing another galaxy? . . . Besides, while I don't think the Ancients were perfect, I rather think it'd be more interesting to find the Ancients were no more good or evil than us because they are us and we are them.
to the first: i don't know! i'm just willing to ascribe all kinds of nefarious plots to them. and to the second: you're right. it would be much more interesting. though the writers don't seem inclined to knock the ancients off their pedestal any time soon.
"Hey, what about the Furlings? Who were in the great four-way alliance with the Ancients, the Asgard, and the Nox?"
that would make PERFECT sense. i'm just sitting here going, who are the nox? and the furlings? *g* (i also don't remember nox appearances, or mentions of furling technology, but it wouldn't have meant anything to me in terms of established SG canon.) i'd just assumed that there *weren't* any other races in pegasus, that nobody but the ancients had gotten there. i mean, nobody's mentioned them, right? and did anyone in or on SG-1 ever mention pegasus?
no subject
Point. Hm. Revising my original point a bit, the Ancient technology's inorganic trappings hide a organic basis while the Wraith technology's organic look belies advanced functions that most would associate with the inorganic.
the biological accents are so obvious all over the hive ships (the webbing for gates, the skin-like walls and bone-like (or nerve-like) conduits beneath it, etc.
I was thinking more of the Wraith weapons and hyperdrive, the dart HUD and controls, and that holographic projection Teyla got a peek at in... "The Gift," was it? Certainly, the Wraith hives look very organic, but I'm not sure high-energy or otherwise dangerous technologies could be maintained without some incorporation of inorganic components.
somebody wrote a fic in which the hive ships weren't merely organic in appearance, they were *alive*
This is a bit off-topic, but my favorite pet crack theory about the Wraith is that everything—from the armor on the Wraith grunts to the hives—is organic and has a certain animal sentience that's more marked in the ships. These, then, are not inanimate objects but actually different castes in Wraith society.
So, in my little world, there's near-mindless technology, faceless grunts, darts, male commander types (with divisions into pilots, scientists, and other important military roles), sterile females, hive ships, and fertile hive queens and keepers. The hives themselves are producing the technology, the darts, and all the male (or possibly sexless) Wraith, the sterile females serving as caretakers—this would explain how the Wraith are able to amass such overwhelming numbers without the queen spending all her time reproducing a la a bee queen and have the weapons and ships to arm all these Wraith. The hive queen, then, is free to devote her attention to strategy and the male commander types, who compete for her favor. The most esteemed male is rewarded with sex if the queen so chooses, and this is the only way to get another queen. Sterile females are also produced by the queen. Only without the sex.
But I digressing liek whoa! ^^;;
i'm just sitting here going, who are the nox? and the furlings?
The Gateworld Omnipedia (http://www.gateworld.net/omnipedia/index.shtml) comes in handy here. To wit, the Nox have been on SG-1 and are extremely shy, while the Furlings have only ever been mentioned. I think... one of the producers or writers or someone compared the Furlings to Care Bears or such. Try to imagine evil Care Bears creating the "Hot Zone" nanovirus. ;)
no subject
Course, that was on that questions to Joe M(can't spell it) on gateworld.net, not sure if he replied or not though.
You could be right, but there's something in my head that remains insistent that it isn't the Ancients, or at least not the main group of them.
no subject
no subject
Which, basically, would leave it to fic untill the point where they do cover it.
There is of course the possability that it was another branch of the ancients that made it. I mean, we have the Ancients, and the Orii, who's to say there isn't some other group like that out there?
no subject
dude. an ANCIENT SPLINTER GROUP. that could totally have happened! we (read: i) just think of the ancients as one amorphous unified race, but that's how we thought of the wraith until recently too. it would make sense if the ancients had political power struggles and extremists and slightly crazy scientists off experimenting with biological doomsday weapons.
I mean, we have the Ancients, and the Orii, who's to say there isn't some other group like that out there?
okay, i've seen an episode or two of SG-1 this season, so i've *heard* of he orii, but i have absolutely no idea who they are (except: bad news). man, i need to do some homework.
no subject
Oh, and the Orii? It's like the Ancients and the Orii came from the same race that split up into groups. The Ancients are 'good', the Orii 'evil', as it were. Though, realistically, it's more complex. The Orii force others to worship them an no others, which is a part of where they get their power from, and destroy all those who do not worship them. Untill recently they didn't know there was sentient life in the Milky Way, and then Daniel Jackson came along and... well, you get the idea.
no subject
But there is competition between the worlds and if Planet A, who before the coming of the wraith was Planet B's enemy, if Planet A gets wiped out, it's no big dealt to Planet B.
Also, if I were the Pegasus Galaxy People I would hate the Atlantis expedition too. 1) they're trespassing on Sacred ground. The city of the acncestors is very important to Pegasus and to just come in w/out an invitation or just asking *anyone* whether its ok is insulting. 2) the Atlantis expedition is very Arrogant, and they're all about what can u do for us? The expedition should be asking for what they should do for Pegasus. Their trade agreements don't really offer the Pegasusians anything. Technology? As seen from Teyla's people, they are "capable" of technology, but because of wanting to be under the radar, they don't advance. Also, the tech they would want is Ancient stuuf, and not the expeditions to begin with and if the expedition offered it to them, then the expedition would(is) stealing from the ancestors. 3) I'm sure that in the team's quest for ZPMs, it's spread through the galaxy that the new people now, on top of illegally *living* in the city of the ancestors, are now stealing ancient tech (ZPM and other) from other worlds.
Also about the Atlantis expedition giving help regarding wraith... how? The best they can do is relocate them, and any world with decent trading contacts can do that on their own.
So why would they help those crazy neo-Atlantians?
no subject
2) The expedition's also ready to trade medical knowledge. And not all people take the Athosians' stance on technology. The Genii have been advancing steadily, if covertly, and the Hoffans chose to advance in fits and starts between cullings. And most Ancient tech needs someone with the gene to at least initialize it, and we've seen that the gene is rare in this galaxy; how much use would it be to the people of Pegasus?
3) It's only stealing if it belongs to someone. There are ZPMs they could have taken that they didn't, because someone was using them (the one on "planet kidkill", for example). What they're doing is more along the lines of grave-robbing, which, yes, isn't exactly admirable, but it is, in their eyes, necessary to their continued survival.
And, regarding the wraith: You're right; an alliance now wouldn't have a lot of benefits other than the promise of relocation. But, with Atlantis' sensors, they could be relocated before the attack, instead of during or after.
And the alliance would probably be more valuable in the long-run, because what if the neo-Atlanteans do come up with a viable defense against the wraith? It's an alliance that comes at little or no cost, and could possibly carries incalcuable long-term benefits.
no subject
It's an alliance that comes at little or no cost, and could possibly carries incalcuable long-term benefits.
that's what it always comes back to for me. whether or not they like these people, what compels them to antagonism and sabotage when it would be so much easier (not to mention beneficial) to go the opposite way?
no subject
Well the way it works out to me is that there is a Pegasus Alliance in that they don't start wars with each other. And of course ceratin worlds have good relationships with with other world so if something were to happen, they would have thier back.
first of all, that's not an alliance—that's a non-aggression pact. and secondly, they don't have a non-aggression pact. maybe they're too busy dreading and then hiding and dying from the wraith to pick fights with other planets (there's also the part where they don't seem to *have* that much contact with each other, and are spread too thinly to rub up against each other all the time; and the fact that they just don't have the population to wage large-scale—or even small-scale—wars), but we've heard the genii say explicitly that they're perfectly happy with the wraith culling other peoples as long as they (the wraith) leave them (the genii) alone; and hoff was also happy to make themselves immune to the wraith at the expense of other planets. nobody has anybody's back. they trade necessities; and the manerans consorted with the genii to deliver the atlanteans (though that feels more personal; the head guy would be rewarded for snitching, not his people), but there's no feeling of neighborliness, not even on the level of FDR's garden hose analogy. that's the most inexplicable and interesting part: that they don't think in terms of the long term and the big picture, of eradicating the wraith and removing the threat for everyone, forever.
Also about the Atlantis expedition giving help regarding wraith... how? The best they can do is relocate them, and any world with decent trading contacts can do that on their own.
i'm actually not completely comfortable with the idea of relocating whole populations, especially in cases like planet kidkill—it smacks of paternalism and colonialism and refugee camps—but